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Kistler's Thoughts On Women In Marvel

Posted on Saturday, April 5, 2008 at 01:31AM by Registered CommenterAlan Kistler in | Comments17 Comments

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Something has happened. I'm not sure what exactly. I'm not sure where and how it began. But it's there, clearly. Something has happened to the women at Marvel. They have lost their respect. Not only the respect they have from writers, but also from other characters and themselves. And I am seriously disturbed and bothered by this.

First of all, I'm a huge fan of women. Not just because I like to date them (though that is true). My grandmother was a huge factor in my upbringing and over the course of my life it just so happens that most of my friends have been female. Yes, I crack sex jokes and flirt without meaning anything by it and with certain friends (male and female alike) I will pretend that I am a chauvinistic pig for three seconds in order to get a laugh from those same friends. But when you get to the serious matters, I don't like women being put down or looked on as less than human.

Years ago, Gail Simone first coined the phrase "woman in the refrigerator syndrome", in reference to an issue of Green Lantern where the hero's girlfriend Alex DeWitt, a very interesting and strong character, was killed off and had her body stuffed into a refridgerator simply to provide a shocking moment for the readers and a motivating force for the hero to finally get serious about his new life. Simone pointed out that this kind of things happened in comics and media all the time. For a while I thought it started lessening at least. Now? Not so sure.

At Marvel, the X-titles and She-Hulk seem to be all about women power. Characters such as She-Hulk, Rogue, Emma Frost, Mystique, Wolfsbane and others continue to kick ass and take names. Are they sexy? Several of them, yes. But they own it. They're strong and interesting and all pretty cool.

But then we get things like that Mary Jane statue.

Until recently (due to editorial decisions beyond my comprehension), Mary Jane Watson was the wife of Spider-Man AKA Peter Parker. When introduced, she was hot and sexy, yes. And she owned it. She was a woman well aware of her beauty and charm and in total command of it. She didn't go around sleeping with any guy she met to make herself feel powerful. In fact, she made damn sure she never settled for anything less than what she was sure made her happy and whole and she would never allow herself to be a victim.

Mary%20Jane%20%20Spider-Man%20Deodato.JPG  Mary%20Jane%20Survivor's%20Guilt.JPG

She is also incredibly smart and intuitive and on several occasions has forced her husband Peter Parker to face truths about himself and his world that he didn't let himself see (such as when she questioned if his career as a crime fighter was merely survivor's guilt mixed with a death wish). A great role model, I think.

And then this statue came out.

Mary%20Jane%20Statue%202.jpg

What the Hell is that? I mean, many of my friends are girls and I've seen them do laundry on occasion. And I canMary%20Jane%20Statue%20Behind.JPG tell you that I do not recall them ever positioning their clothes to be so far away or at such a low height that they have to pose in such a way. In fact, they usually make sure that their clothes are within comfortable reaching distance. Plus, they have these things called "knees" which allow them to bend rather than stand up straight and lean their torso over in such an unnatural fashion.

And frankly, in my opinion, if Peter handed his dirty costume to MJ, she'd probably laugh and toss it at his head as she said, "Do your own damn laundry, I have enough clothes to wash on my own!" But hey, that's another conversation entirely.

Heroes%20for%20Hire%20rape%20cover.jpgThen there was the now-infamous cover for Heroes for Hire, a title which stars a group of government enforcers and has several women on the team. In this issue, as implied on the cover, the female members find themselves in a bad situation (one that brings Hentai to mind).

Marvel tried to explain that this cover wasn't meant to imply a scene of women chained up, undressed and ready to be sexually assaulted by slimy phalluses, it was meant to show that the alien monsters known as the Brood were coming because the Brood have tails so there.

Um, yes, they do have tails. They also have legs and sharp, sharp teeth. Why didn't we see a bunch of Brood faces at the bottom of the cover instead of Brood.JPGjust their tails? Why not show the female heroes (all of whom are excellent fighters) standing back-to-back, surrounded by Brood on all sides but still ready to go down fighting? Why are we showing them not only captured but undressed and looking completely powerless and afraid?

Another prime example of women losing respectability happened soon after Storm of the X-Men married the Black Panther. For years, Storm has been one of the strongest women in comics. For a long time, she was the only one who could tell Wolverine "chill out and shut up" and get away with it. Even when she temporarily lost her powers, she was able to beat Cyclops in combat and prove herself worthy to lead the X-Men in the field. And because she is so damn powerful, she never backed down from a fight, though she would also be sure to avoid it if possible not out of fear but simply because she understood that fighting rarely gave you a result you truly desired.

After she married the Black Panther, there were a few instances where she was spoken down to by others who saw her as the king's consort and she seemed to take it. She may have been insulted, but she didn't really speak up for herself. Very odd, considering this woman was once worshipped as a goddess and has the healthy ego to prove it. And then, during Civil War, in a tie-in written by Richard Hudlin, Storm found herself facing a cyborg-clone of the thunder god Thor. Rather than tear into him with the fury of her own lightning and thunder, Storm acted rather doubtful of her own abilities and was only too happy to back off and let Marvel's Hercules handle the situation, cheering him on from the sidelines rather than lending a hand. I remember scratching my head and thinking "Was Storm replaced by a really cowardly Skrull? 'Cause if not ..."

Tigra%20Pouncing.JPGIf you're an Avenger these days, it's a bad time to be a woman apparently. In New Avengers, written by Brian Michael Bendis, B-list super-hero Tigra was recently attacked. And by "attacked", I mean she was blinded-sided by C-list villain the Hood who shot her and then savagely pistol-whipped her in her own bedroom. She was then told to do as she's told or else her mother would be hurt. This was all video-taped by the villain called Jigsaw, who stood nearby, so that other super-villains could watch and cheer later.

Tigra can be overpowered and blind-sided, yes. But she's no pushover. She Tigra%20Hood%20Fight%201.JPGworked for a while as a New York cop, she has years of experience in fighting super villains and world conquering aliens alongside the Avengers and has had training sessions with Captain America himself, one of Earth's best fighters. And with her retractable claws, animalistic fighting instincts, enhanced healing and resiliency to injury, and superhuman strength/speed/agility, she's given formidable opponents such as Spider-Man a fair fight.

So why didn't we see her make a decent effort against this guy? Why did she give in so sheepishly instead of shouting "Screw you, SHIELD is just a phone call away! Touch my family and I'll kill you!" She has super-human strength and recovery abilities, why did she cower and shriek when she was smacked with a gun? Why did she shudder and beg this guy to stop?

Tigra%20Hood%20Fight%202.JPG

The Hood has no superhuman strength or resiliency. With his hood and cape, he can turn invisible when he holds his breath, defy gravity and occasionally summon a demon form which has claws (but again, not superhuman strength or resiliency). Why didn't Tigra, realizing her life was in danger, claw the little bastard across the throat and then throw Jigsaw (who doesn't have any superhuman powers at all) out the damn window? And come to think of it, why was Tigra so surprised by his attack? She has superhuman senses that allow her to see into the infra-red and recognize a person by their scent. Even if the Hood's mystical cape was able to hide his scent along with his visibility, Jigsaw had no such protection.

A few women friends of mine who read this scene said that the nature of the attack (in a bedroom, video-taped, having the woman on her knees and begging) made them feel as if they were watching a rape. That's definitely not a good thing when readers react that way. 

And finally, we have the government-sanctioned Mighty Avengers team led by Ms. Marvel. Bendis writes this title as well. In the first story, the evil artificial intelligence known as Ultron (once responsible for killing an entire European country) takes over the form of Tony Stark AKA Iron Man. Integrating with the technology in Tony's body, Ultron not only takes control but also transforms Tony into a naked copy of the female hero called the Wasp.

Ultron%20Woman%20Avengers.jpg

Rather than take the situation seriously, the Wasp's first reaction is to think about how the appearance of this copy reflects on herself. Right, cuz never mind that one of your worst enemies is back and your teammate Iron Man may have suffered brain-death by being possessed, you're so shallow you can only focus on how this affects you and what people think of you.

Ultron%20Woman.jpgThe transformation itself seems to be nothing more than an excuse to have a naked, somewhat silvery girl on the cover and in the story. Why would the machine mind of Ultron decide that it would be a good strategy to become a woman? And this physical transformation has no lasting effect on the story or characters, as evidenced when Tony is returned to normal later and has no side-effects from what should have been a traumatic experience. In fact, he jokes about it the next issue as if it were just one of those days. Dude, your entire physical form was taken over by an evil robot, physically re-alligned to match the form of your friend and teammate, and was then shunted back. Have a reaction!

Ultron seems out of character entirely in the book and then makes the story worse by needlessly killing the wife of the hero the Sentry. The fact that she is resurrected by Sentry before the story-arc is even over only makes the scene pathetically pointless, as it shows that her death was purely for shock value and was not meant to have any impact or consequence on our characters or the story arc. I guess I should just be thankful she wasn't literally found in a refrigerator.

Ms. Marvel is put in charge of this team, which is a good choice because she has years of experience not only asMsMarvel%20Second%20outfit.JPG a super-hero but as a military espionage agent. She was buddies with Wolverine and is quite powerful, able to give folks like Iron Man a good fight if she wants. She's fought alongside the X-Men and the Avengers and has helped save the world on several occasions. She's had a career that involved her traveling through outer space more than once. She's seen and done it all and it's made her a formidable woman. Yet in every issue, her thought bubbles depict her as having little to no idea what she's doing.

And then the latest issue. The Mighty Avengers team attacks the castle of Victor von Doom, one of the biggest terrorists in the Marvel Universe, made interesting because not only is he a man who mixes both science and sorcery in his attacks but also because he is a villain who does his best to seem like an aristocrat, abiding by a personal code of honor and constantly emphasizing that he is more enlightened and civilized than you.

In the story, Doom captures the Avengers pretty easily (not too surprising, as he is Doom, after all). And when Ms. Marvel demands some answers, he barks "You mean nothing to me! You are a fat piece of furniture I may need for trade! So shut your cow-mouth or I'll remove your face by hand before I stop your whore's heart!"

Ms%20Marvel%20Cow%20Mouth.JPG

This is absurd. Not only is it needlessly insulting towards women in what is, let's face it, a super-hero comic that should appeal to a younger as well as older audience. Not only is it needlessly over the top with not one but three anti-female statements in one panel. But on top of that, it is completely out of character for Doom. He speaks as an aristocrat, almost akin to an evil Hamlet. When he loses his temper, he proclaims things such as "Silence, lest I cast you into oblivion with the barest effort!" or "Be still, woman! Or you shall know the full power of he whom men call DOOM!"

The "cow-mouth" dialogue would almost be understandable if it were coming from the Captain America villain Crossbones (a gangbanger and a rapist) but not from a an elitist snob who is monarch of his own European country, super-villain or not. A fat joke would be beneath him. It speaks of sloppy/lazy writing rather than someone sitting down and thinking "Okay, knowing Doom as a character, what would be his natural response to this?"

Oh, but it gets worse. Amazingly, it gets worse! Because Ms. Marvel's thought balloon has her admit that her feelings are actually hurt by these remarks. Her feelings are hurt! She was in the military! Surely she was yelled at by drill sergeants every damn day of training! She's fought alongside Wolverine and against world-conquering monsters. Why would such stupid and infantile remarks get to her?

And what's worse, it must be obvious that they do because then Wonder Man assures her "You're not fat." Why? Why doesn't he respect her enough to figure hey, she's Ms. freaking Marvel, she can blast a hole through concrete and she's the leader of one of the most powerful teams on Earth, I'm not gonna coddle her like a thirteen-year-old who just got dumped.

Yes, I know, DC is not without its faults either. My friend Laura Hudson (writer for the magazine Comic Star%20Sapphire%20Semi-Nude%20Cover.jpgFoundry) once told me about a female comic book customer who was a huge Green Lantern fan but was too embarrassed to buy issue #18 because of its cover featuring the villain Star Sapphire in a very racy pose (and her new, more revealing-than-ever, outfit).

Looking at it, I can understand the customer's basic problem but also think it's not really that bad when you consider that the action is definitely in character for the villain (who is very much about using her sexuality and dominating men).  Still, perhaps the costume or the pose shouldn't be that bloody blatant. Comics have female readers too, after all, and this can be taken into consideration without being unfaithful to a character's personality and habits. But while this cover may be a tad embarassing for some, I think it's a far cry from what happened to Tigra.

Despite this, DC seems to treat its female characters better all around. The women on the Justice League are capable, powerful people, Power Girl leads the Justice Society, Wonder Woman is brave enough to fight super-villains even in her non-powered human identity. Manhunter is a very good read featuring a woman federal prosecutor who balances being a super-hero with being a single mom. And Rene Montoya, a former detective of the Gotham City Police Department, has shown how cool she can be now that she's taken on the mantle of the hero called The Question (and she's certainly sparked discussion among several due to her on-again, off-again relationship with Batwoman).

And check out this cover from a later issue in Green Lantern. Like the Heroes for Hire cover, it basically involves a Laira%20Prisoner.JPGfemale in bondage. But see how different the scene is? Thanks to the expression on her face, her stance, and the length of her chain, we don't see a victim here. She may be captured, but as far as she's concerned she has the power, she has the control and she'll be damned if someone else thinks they can take that away.

It is possible to show a woman being captured or defeated without insulting them too. 

I'm not saying I'm against sex in comics. I never lost respect for Black Canary because she enjoyed a relationship with Green Arrow. I never thought Mary Jane was a tramp for wearing the occasional sexy underwear for her husband Peter. I know that sex sells and that there's a reason many women have more revealing costumes than men and are somehow never cold. While I think it would make sense for them to wear pants, you won't find me saying that Wonder Woman and Power Girl are anti-female because of their wardrobe.

But this stuff at Marvel, I don't know. As I said, the majority of their titles seem fine. I don't see this kind of sentiment in X-Men, X-Factor, She-Hulk or Fantastic Four. So it's not the majority of the company. But it's happening enough that it bothers me and it's especially disturbing to see it happening in both of the main Avengers titles, since those teams are supposed to be Earth's A-list super-hero groups in the Marvel Universe and get lots of readers since they involve characters such as Wolverine, Iron Man and Spider-Man.

I don't think Bendis hates women, as some do. He did an excellent job with the series Alias, starring detective Jessica Jones who remains an interesting character, and he has introduced and revived some good female characters, not only with Jones but also with the ninja Echo and the original Spider-Woman. But this recent writing just feels lazy. Like putting a rape scene in a crime movie because it's the easiest way to get people to hate your villain. Maybe it's because he's writing so many comics at once now. But you know what?

Laziness is definitely no excuse.Alan%20Kistler%20Contemplative.jpg

 

- Alan Kistler ...

 

... is a pinball wizard,

'sgot such a supple wrist!

 

Next Column: Life is very hectic right now, so I have no idea. Let me figure it out at my own pace, eh?

Quote of the Week: " 'Let me help.' A hundred years or so from now, I believe, a famous novelist will write a classic using that theme. He'll recommend those three words even over 'I love you.' "

The quote from the previous column was from the Fourth Doctor in Doctor Who: Planet of Evil.

Reader Comments (17)

Interesting post. I didn't realize the Avengers had gotten that bad.
April 8, 2008 | Unregistered CommenterSam
Hmm. I never knew that comics were getting the point of condescation of women (well, not all, but some). Possibly reflecting our society?

And that one pic really does remind you of Hentai.. in a bad way.
April 9, 2008 | Unregistered CommenterSara
It really looks like Bendis is to blame here. What's his deal, did he just decide he didn't like women anymore? I know you say otherwise, but that's what it looks like to me.
April 9, 2008 | Unregistered CommenterAlex
I'm kind of not sure if you read any of the material you are writing about. You pick a huge chunk of stuff from an article that Hudson wrote in Comics Foundry issue number one about Storm that isn't even how the events of that issue went down and don't follow up on the end of the Tigra piece.

I don't think any of this is original. It's like you cut and paste some of the articles about feminism in comics and strung them together in the worst way possible.


KISTLER'S RESPONSE:
What's interesting is that you don't actually say whether or not you disagree with me. It's sort of just "you suck and copy form others and don't know anything" and that's it. No original thoughts of your own to debate my point, no evidence to back your claims or poke holes in mine.

Everything I mentioned here, I own the issues in question, as anyone who works at Midtown Comics Grand Central and ComicMix.com can tell you. I make it a point to read them because I enjoy the characters and keep hoping the stories will get better and because I am literally PAID to read them so that I may continue writing pieces for my bosses over at ComicMix.com and be their go-to trivia boy. If I didn't read the stuff I write about, DC and Warner Bros. wouldn't give a crap about who I am and wouldn't call me up on occasion. Nor would ComiMix offer me money to routinely write what I think.

If you mean that thoughts themselves aren't original and that others have talked about this subject, then that simply means others have noticed the same thing and strengthens my view that there is something wrong with the situation in certain Marvel books these days. That's a mark against Marvel, not I.

If you disagree with my sentiments and think the scenes I mentioned are not anti-female, cool. Explain why you feel that way and what specific points you disagree with. I think debates are fun and interesting. But don't just insult me and leave like we're kids. Being rude and insulting a friend of mine in the process without any real merit made me consider just deleting this comment (an act which I certainly wouldn't be punished for since it's my personal blog and I answer only to myself here). But, what the Hell. Everyone can speak their piece, even if I don't get it.

On an unrelated note, I really liked your piece on Funnybook about Greg Land.
April 9, 2008 | Unregistered CommenterPedro Tejeda
Well said.
There are most certainly ways to depict female superheros in danger without insluting them.

I think Ms. Marvel's thought bubble should have said,
"Mr. Doom is looking pretty chunky himself AND he has a jacked up grill!"

KISTLER'S RESPONSE:
That would've been pretty awesome.
April 9, 2008 | Unregistered CommenterJacque
whew. look at my freudian slip.
"insluting them"
so true.

KISTLER'S RESPONSE:
I think we should enter that word into our lexicon. "To inslut: (verb) meaning to portray one as a tramp or object of sexual attack." I think it works. :-)
April 9, 2008 | Unregistered CommenterJacque
Thanks so much for sending me the link to your article. you really make several very good points and you show exactly what they are doing. And i agree that the videotaping and bedroom scene sounds scarily like rape, and I would be afraid to meet the writer who came up with that storyline, because it feels like he has a strong hatred toward women. I also am nonplussed about the fat furniture comment. Too many women in this world already have such a negative body image, and it is just wrong to not only perpetuate that idea but make fun of it.

KISTLER'S RESPONSE:
I would almost be okay with it if he made just ONE such comment to Ms. Marvel, but to make three such comments within one panel AND have them be out of character, that just doesn't sit right. And to weaken the character further by having her actually remark that her feelings are hurt, man.

Glad you liked the piece. And yes, I definitely wanted to include scanned images so it would be clear what I was talking about. I mean, if people out there think the Mary Jane statue is perfectly fine and that there's nothing wrong with Tigra's beating, okay. At least I know we're looking at the same image.
April 9, 2008 | Unregistered CommenterJen
I hadn't seen the Dr. Doom til this article. And it just doesn't make sense. Doom thinks of himself as an aristocrat. Always has. (Now I haven't read a lot of Doom in recent years, so maybe this has changed)

He would never stoop to belittle someone based on gender. On their station in life, that they are not deemed worthy to be on his level, sure.

These things tend to ebb and flow. The Tigra issue certainly got a lot of play on the internet. Bendis certainly justified it, in some way, but I tend to fall on your side of the arguement.

I think that since Quesada has become EIC, that Marvel and the stories are much much better. But there is a sense of Lowest Common Denominator to the comics at times.

Back in the day, Storm was this unusual character, a powerful African woman, who took a backseat to no one. She was powerful with her mutant powers, but she was just as powerful without. And she was never defined by a relationship to anyone.

And yet, here she is in a marriage to the Black Panther. In some ways it's too easy. A powerful African woman falling for a powerful African black man. Not that we needed her to be a poster for mixed-coupling, but it just seems too easy.

It's like when someone said if I thought Patrick Stewart was a good choice for Professor X in the movie. My comment was that Patrick Stewart would be good in almost any role, but regardless of that fact.... It's almost like they just said "Well Professor X is bald, which actor is bald and is instantly recognizable to comic book fans?"

But that's going off on a tangent.

Anyway, abuse of women in comics seems too easy. Like the plot in the show 24, where there's a mole in the government every damn season. Or an amnesia episode on every genre television show that exists.

That's all from me

KISTLER'S RESPONSE:
You would think that Jack and the others would realized "Hey, obviously our screening process sucks. And why don't we keep a vending machine full of Red Bull when we keep having emergencies that require us to not sleep for 24 hours?"

Don't even get me started on amnesia.

Thanks for writing!
April 10, 2008 | Unregistered CommenterRobert S.
I seriously wrote like 500 plus words on why you are wrong and I realized that I had said it 60 other times because your arguments are verbatim what others have said. I admit I was a jerk to kind of blow you off but I don't really think you invested a lot of time and effort into your work here.

I don't want to refute your arguments line by line, so I'm just going to focus on the Tigra stuff even if your Storm stuff is incredibly off from the events of that book.

Your basis for the treatment of Tigra as being disrespectful is based on the fact that this character should be able to take out a threat like the Hood. The Hood has a power set that you believe is beneath the range of Tigra, and even if she is cornered she should be able to take out him and Jigsaw.

What does this have to do with anything? Does Tigra read a stack of Marvel Handbooks that lets her know the Hood's power ratings? Did she know who this individual was? It's a fight between two individuals where one is more sure of the others capabilities than others? Would this sequence be less offensive if it was Dr. Doom, Magneto, some other high powered villain?

I remember the fan outrage that occurred when Black Panther put Silver Surfer in some sort of headlock. People accused Mcduffie of promoting a black character as being great. It was kind of disgusting on my end. People were more worried about some set of comics power rule than the story going on.

Maybe I'm just not a handbook guy. To me it's not the end of the world if everything matches 1 to 1 via powers but the weird thing is that when they don't match, people's automatic reaction is something along the lines that the writer is disrespecting the character or has issues towards females, whites, or silver coated space aliens.

You also completely disregard Tigra's justification for playing along with the Hood in New Avengers Annual 2. It's as if the issue doesn't exist. It's obvious that Bendis introduces Tigra because he has plans for her as a character beyond playing victim.

I don't want to get into the whole beating scene. The writer and artist have gone into detail about the intention of the sequence was to show The Hood's brutality.

It is a nasty scene and I agree it has something very similar with a rape sequence in that rape is about power and this was about Hood cementing his power. But this scene lacks any sexuality at all. This scene would be no different if Hood (who is straight) was beating on a man or if the Hood were gay and beating on a man. It lacks any of the sexual undertone that would accompany a rape. At best I can see some slight misogyny coming from Jigsaw who is portrayed as a piece of crap.

Also I never insulted Laura Hudson. I just said she said the same exact thing in a different printed article.

KISTLER'S RESPONSE:
Now that's a fair point about the power argument. Dwayne McDuffie and I actually spoke about those Silver Surfer/Black Panther complaints you talked about last weekend and I agree that those were ridiculous. In that case though, my own feeling was that the Silver Surfer is the kind of guy who would hear out the Black Panther rather than just kill him anyway and I never thought it had anything to do with one character being black and one being an alien who resembles a Caucasian human. I'm totally with you that those people were wrong.

As for the Marvel handbook argument, I see what you are saying and that's also a fair point. My deal is not that Tigra was DEFEATED it's that she didn't even put up a fight. If we saw her land a few punches at least and then still get beaten down, I would be fine with this. I mean, I accept that Batman is able to take on super-powered enemies, that a guy as powerful as Doom loses 80% of the time, and that Spider-Man was able to give the entire X-Men a good fight during the original Secret Wars. Powers are the icing on the cake, but my main point was that she didn't even seem to try and I thought that was out of character. The New Avengers Annual explanation didn't cut it for me and happened so many months later that I considered it a justification and not actually in mind when the story happened. I read Bendis's explanations about how the scene was portrayed and I didn't feel he was really addressing the issue that was brought up.

Also notice that I didn't say I personally thought it looked like a rape scene. That personally never occurred to me. It was people I've spoken to about this that said that, enough that I felt it was a point to mention. But your point about lack of sexuality is interesting and I think people should consider that when looking over this scene again.

I (and Laura) do feel there was a bit of an underhanded insult there, but that could've been us misinterpreting what you were saying. So I'll take your word for it that no offense was meant and say I'm sorry for taking that meaning from you. As for us making the same point, I've already addressed that.

Thank you for bringing up some good counterpoints, I find them quite interesting (and again, totally side with you about the Silver Surfer/Black Panther thing).
April 10, 2008 | Unregistered CommenterPedro Tejeda
I'm not sure if you read about Bendis defending himself over the Tigra scene? There was obviously some criticism from the feminist fans, and he responded to that by saying that he had a mother, meaning that he isn't sexist just because he has a mother. Funnily enough, there are many people who have female mothers.

@ Pedro Tejeda: It's common sense: someone with a higher power can beat someone with a lower power. It does have to do with Tigra getting beat up by Hood. Plus I love to question Bendis' writing. It truly is atrocious; he treated Ultimate Spider-Woman as a fetish outlet for himself and reduced She-Hulk and Scarlet Witch to anti-feminist stereotypes. And of course, add to his resume Tigra and Ms. Marvel/Doom, and you've got some misogynistic writing.
April 10, 2008 | Unregistered CommenterWendy
PS. I must add: I would really hate to think that Bendis himself is misogynistic but his writing has been really questionable as of late. His writing in Alias I have really enjoyed, but that's the only positive thing I'm getting from him.

KISTLER'S RESPONSE:
Yeah, I'm just confused more than anything else. I see Alias and Powers and his first 50 issues of Ultimate Spider-Man and it's really akin to a different writer. Again, I don't think it's necessarily an anti-female attitude so much as it might just be someone who's rushing in stories and knew that such treatment of women is the easiest way to get people to hate the villain involved.

Thanks for reading and for your comments.
April 10, 2008 | Unregistered CommenterWendy
I don't think NA2 is a disconnected as you make it out to be. Reading NA2, it is quite obvious that story is part of a the Hood storyline that has to occur before Secret Invasion starts to put all the characters in their place.

Marvel has been playing a weird long term game with it's 70's characters. Iron Fist, Speedball, and Hercules have been showing up more often and being pushed with character changes. Two of those characters have ongoings.

The point of Tigra's beatdown seems to be more of a situation to show that Tony's Starks Initiative does not work and to justify the existence of the New Avengers. Tigra sees this in the end and looks to be part of the team now. It's not some expert writing and it serves the character revamp more than her current character.

I see the clumsy writing but I don't see the misogyny. This is why I can see why Bendis was so hostile. This automatic jump that the reason the writer wrote X character one way is that he hates a group, maybe he just fucked up. Call the writer on that. He seems more responsive to that type of criticism anyways.

Sometimes bad art or bad storytelling is just that instead of some deeper attack on woman. Bendis is trying his hand at team superhero comics and sometimes doing really well and sometimes doing badly. I'm a bigger fan of someone trying something outside their range then not. It drives me crazy that this argument becomes between "Bendis is a misogynist and can't write for crap" and "Bendis is the greatest writer and you al need to shut the fuck up cause you are haters." He's obviously somewhere in between especially doing work outside of the stuff he's well know for.

Also the Ultimate Spider-Woman Fetish thing makes absolutely no sense to me what so ever. Is this more of that garbage, Bendis is a pedophile or Bendis wants to sleep with Kitty Pryde stuff that people keep saying? I've like the book post the Hobgoblin arc and think it's better than the original 50.

KISTLER'S RESPONSE:
I see where you're coming from even if I'm not in complete agreement. As for the misoginy, please note that I did state in my post that I didn't think Bendis was actually anti-female or hated women and Wendy also said she would hate to think such a thing, she's just bothered by his writing lately. So there's no real attack here on Bendis being anti-female so much as that he has recently been sloppy/lazy in his writing and this has given an anti-female feeling as the result. Those are two very different scenarios.

As for any points you're addressing to another commenter, I think I'd like to ask EVERYONE to hold off on those from now on. This is a section for basic blog comments, not a message board, nor do I think anyone involved here is going to really win this particular argument. Thank you all though for your responses, I find all these thoughts from different sides to be quite fascinating.
April 11, 2008 | Unregistered CommenterPedro Tejeda
Wait a minute, you DON'T see that kind of sentiment in She-Hulk? Like, even recently?
April 13, 2008 | Unregistered CommenterMullon
This reminds me, a little, of what happened to Sue Dibny in "Identity Crisis".

I recall reading a lot of places, even recently, that complained about Sue's treatment. Calling it unfair, pointless and a lot of other things--of course, these people generally didn't like the massive rectonning and changing of the mythos of the superhero itself.

I liked "Identity Crisis"--I still like it, and I think it's a great story. I can't see it working, or being as powerful as a base for the rest of the Crises that follow, if Brad didn't do the things he had done. But that's a different discussion, really.

Then there's what happened to Stephanie Brown... I don't really know what purpose that served, but I didn't really keep up with subsequent things. From what I read, people seemed to be rather upset by the lack of reaction by Tim Drake. Again, unsure about all that.
April 13, 2008 | Unregistered CommenterKristopher
thanks for this post. i thinks it's important that men see these issues in comics and make a stand. it's not to say that we need to stand up for the poor little gals out there, but i think it's time for people to see that not all comic reading males see this as okay, or think nothing of it, or wish to blow it off. people blow off scantily clad female characters as being from a "freer culture" or "strong and independent", not remembering that these are fictional characters written by men! it's all male gaze in effect, pure and simple. Wonder woman seems to be one of the few characters to which this thinking actually applies.
i think a greater problem, too, is that mainstream comics have become entirely event driven. characterization and plot are out, newer and bigger "crises" are in. every other month a new "crisis"? gimme a break! it's a shame in a larger sense, but it's also a shame that female characters are made into deadly objects to be tortured, raped, and killed just to advance a story, create a "crisis", or boost sales. a male character never gets raped then killed. that'd be "gay", not something 15 year old fanboys could handle. and i'm not saying that they SHOULD be dealt with that way. i'm saying how about no raping and killing AT ALL for a while, huh?
thanks again.
April 15, 2008 | Unregistered Commentermilton.
Alan, can we link this in the 21st Feminist SF Carnival on Thursday? Let me know!

Thanks,
Skye

KISTLER'S RESPONSE:
Sorry for the late reply. Sure!
April 29, 2008 | Unregistered CommenterSkye
I considered the Red Hood vs. Tigra beatdown to be about the failure of the Initiative and also Bendis trying to make the Red Hood not a 3rd rate villain. And I do believe that he has more powers than just invisibility as his hood is tied to demon-sourced power and he do a smackdown on Dr. Strange. I'm pretty okay with the Red Hood beating Tigra given that he also beat Dr. Strange.
May 5, 2008 | Unregistered CommenterVWishes

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